From britdisc-owner@csv.warwick.ac.uk Wed Apr 29 16:14:31 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.8) id PAA20935 for britdisc-outgoing; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:57:13 +0100 (BST) Received: from artemis.le.ac.uk (artemis.le.ac.uk [143.210.16.126]) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.8) with ESMTP id PAA20904 for <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk>; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:57:04 +0100 (BST) Received: from harrier.le.ac.uk ([143.210.8.56]) by artemis.le.ac.uk with smtp (Exim 1.90 #1) for britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk id 0yUYKH-0007ey-00; Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:59:13 +0100 Date: Wed, 29 Apr 1998 15:56:42 +0100 (BST) From: "B. Ravilious" <br5@leicester.ac.uk> X-Sender: br5@harrier To: Britdisc <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: Women's Ultimate: The beginning of the end? Message-ID: <Pine.SGI.3.96.980429141336.21548A-100000@harrier> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-britdisc@warwick.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Hi Laura. I think you'll have a lively debate on this one! ;-) I've added some thoughts of my own to your piece. ================================================================================ Ben Ravilious, (0116) 2559638 home br5@le.ac.uk (0116) 2525824 work ORACLE Trial Playing Ultimate for RED University of Leicester www.ultimateweb.co.uk/red/ ================================================================================ On Tue, 28 Apr 1998 laurapearce@btinternet.com wrote: > There are naturally differences between the sexes, factors such as speed, > strength and height (although NOT skills) which become more accentuated as > Ultimate develops and becomes more competitive. I agree. The introduction of the > Tour has given all teams the opportunity to be more competitive and this is > not a privilege just to be enjoyed by the top teams. I agree again. > Few can argue against > the fact that the men's game has and is getting stronger, but as this > happens there is a danger the women's game will get left behind. Possibly. > > For female Ultimate players (in general), there are only two options which > would improve the standard of women and the women's game: > > 1. To split some or all of Ultimate by sex eg. Tour, Nationals, > 2. To play co-ed Ultimate, including at major events/tournaments where ALL > teams have to adhere to a compulsory gender specification (eg. 5-2, 4-3 > split) > > HOWEVER, as the situation in GB stands at present, the second option is not > viable because as the level of competition is improving in the men's game, > it is a step backwards in its development to then play co-ed ultimate > instead. Absolutely. Personally I don't like the idea of enforcing numbers of men and women in serious competition. > > This leaves the first option. The only way to improve women's ultimate is > to have more of it. Very True. This is happening to a certain extent with the women's > tournaments that have taken place, but this is only the tip of the iceberg > and more needs to be done. > > More points about separating ultimate by sex: > > 1. In the vast majority of sports, especially team sports, women do not > compete against men in the same way as in ultimate in GB, because it is not > realistic. When ultimate was first 'born', by its very nature it challenged > the traditional beliefs associated with men and women and sport. It is true > that the fact that women have the chance to play against men is one aspect > of the sport that makes it different and arguably special. However, it is > possible that this very aspect is holding back its development. In order > for Ultimate to develop (assuming that this is the aim), it needs more > people to take it seriously. It seems unlikely that non-players will take > it seriously as a sport when there are aspects which make it come across as > more of a recreation than anything else. Now I don't agree. Do you mean to say that we should stop playing unenforced mixed ultimate just because some people might not take it seriously? Surely as our culture learns to deal with sexual equality (which it has NOT yet done!) games such as Ultimate will stand out as a shining example? Ultimate has a problem with not being taken seriously primarily beacuse it has a pretentious name and is played with a Frisbee! Being mixed is the least of our worries. 100 years ago the idea of mixed sport would have been laughed at. Today it is accepted if somewhat sidelined. What will the future hold? I think more and more women are realising that sport is an option for them. > 2. An argument put forward for women to play 'open' ultimate is that they > can push themselves harder against men or that there is not enough women's > competition. If the women's game was stronger, it would not only mean > increased competition for existing players, but would also be more likely to > attract sportswomen from other sports, which could then also raise the > level. > > 3. While the national team is not the only consideration for women's > ultimate, the national team (for any sport) can only be as good as the > structure below it. The ideal scenario would be to get to a stage where a > women's tour could be run alongside the men's tour and where women would > choose to play in the women's tour, rather than in the men's/open tour. > Unfortunately, this cannot be achieved overnight. If partition is what you want then who am I to argue with that? HOWEVER, I don't want to be around on the day when mixed teams are not allowed in major competition. > > 4. Playing in and against women's teams gives players more all-round > experience of women's ultimate. It also improves players' confidence and > ability at club level which they can then bring to international level > (Worlds and World Clubs) rather than trying to improve confidence and > ability at national level training or in games against 'open' teams. Yes the confidence boost of playing womens only events is undoubtedly good. A > women's tour could then also lead to Nationals and men's and women's > nationals could be held alongside each other (this would require Nationals > to be split into men's and women's). A women's tour would not benefit from > having one stacked team, but using the last two women's tournaments as > examples (indoor nationals and Spring into Action) the stronger, more > experienced players have been spread over several teams and this would need > to continue initially. Laura do YOU personally not want to play on mixed teams? > > It is important to stress that the success of having men's and women's > ultimate would depend on running alongside each other and not separating > them completely. No they would soon start to separate. in 20 years time, given enough women playing there would be no need to have the sexes playing alongside each other Also, if what you say about the development of the mens game is true, you wouldn't want it stealing the show when the women are playing "over on pitch x". > > 5. Mixed Ultimate need not be abolished and it is important that those > players who want to play co-ed ultimate (as opposed to open) still have that > opportunity. That might mean ensuring some tournaments outside Nationals > and the tour are co-ed (ie 5-2/4-3 split). This gives women a chance to > play on teams with men, but be generally playing against women. It is up to > those people to put in the groundwork in organising co-ed events. I think mixed would quickly dissappeared if men and women were pushed into only playing on single sex teams. > > To finish: > More women's ultimate means better women's ultimate so lets try and find > ways to make it happen. I wholely agree with that statement. But I am inclined to re-write it: "More ultimate women means better women's ultimate"! And here's my "vision" of the future: The main reason why all this talk of splitting is going on is because NOT ENOUGH WOMEN PLAY ULTIMATE.(or indeed any sports) Agree with me so far? Surely being mixed is a great factor in attracting people to ultimate? I dont know how much recruiting you've done recently. I've run loads of freshers fairs etc. The biggest problem I encountered was that women simply didn't come into the sports fair in large numbers! I think we've recruited a fair cross section of the people in the room it's just most of them were men! Seems like the usual cultural hang-ups about sex and sport! It would be nice to hear some more responses on this from women. Just two blokes replying so far! Cheers Ben