From britdisc-owner@csv.warwick.ac.uk Wed Jul 15 23:24:56 1998 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.8) id XAA05984 for britdisc-outgoing; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:12:37 +0100 (BST) Received: from post.mail.demon.net (post-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.40]) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.8.7/8.8.8) with SMTP id XAA05979 for <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk>; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 23:12:35 +0100 (BST) Received: from (phidelta.demon.co.uk) [158.152.248.177] by post.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 1.82 #2) id 0ywZmo-000151-00; Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:12:30 +0000 Message-ID: <app$GIAXHSr1Ew0W@phidelta.demon.co.uk> Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 22:40:39 +0100 To: britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk From: Wayne Retter <wayne@phidelta.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: Advance notice In-Reply-To: <01BDB01C.548950A0@raviben810.crispgroup.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Turnpike Trial Version 3.04 <pjZRgFWDsQK5ViyP$l4rxVrb6a> Sender: owner-britdisc@warwick.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Andy Tucker> Without going into too much detail, UTI formed three years > ago My memory gets hazy that far back... but here's the detail... originally the theory was to combine the graduating Bears with the graduating Skunks (the top 2 student teams at that time) because neither wanted to join up with the other teams and neither were sure they could survive without doing so... they were "SkEars" at one point...(or was this just a "trial", "indoor" thing?) This reminds me of the "old wise Hombres" + "young fit Regulators" = "Shotgun Wedding" equation... [and, not many years down the line, Stan and Strollers, the teams that traditionally picked up the graduates from these teams disappeared... OK, this wasn't the ONLY reason, but it must have been important to have the supply of youngsters dry up?] Andy Tucker> As players at the time, we were not widely known, What??? The Warwick "Cradle of British Ultimate" Bears, winners of the Karaoke in Newport, and Southampton "University Team of Jeff Jackson" Skunks... I disagree :) Andy Tucker> is still the core of a tour winning team. Well, the old Skunks, if they are relevant here, have gone, and of the Bears you have: Guy, Andy, Colin, Steve, Mark... just a few amoungst the numbers you now have (d'you remember having to include girls to play 7 aside?) Andy Tucker> Of course a few extra players have joined along the way Name names! Danny (returned from Stan) Adam H, Lee, Del (all exMonks, via other places) Alex "Welshy" (Mwnci See founder), Alex (still ought to be a Mohawk!), Dave Trovell (exColchester, via Catch 22), Ian "Jock" (exSneeeky), "Stumpy" Matt (exCatch 22) - and rumours that some of the Shotgun boys are looking for a new team if theirs isn't going to survive... Andy Tucker> and a few have left, Gavin disappeared with a back injury, Rik now plays for Mild Mannered Janitors (for the entertainment value I've heard!), where's Stu these days (seriously?) Andy Tucker> but it certainly wasn't a case of skimming the cream. Well, I suppose not, but it's a shame that Oxford and Mohawks now struggle to put out teams without their inspirational players (OK, I know this isn't the only reason, but you have to wonder...) and all of these players have seen fit to try out and play for the GB squads in the last few years... it's not as though you're teaching anybody new... Ben Ravillious: >I know the histories of Catch and Chevy are pretty similar, with the >core of their teams being based on old Leeds and Manchester Uni >teams. But Catch seem to be suffering now from being located elsewhere (mostly split between London and Leeds?), but not as badly as they might without their increasing numbers of 'high level' experiences (World Clubs, Tour Finals...) and the addition of a player/coach with the knowledge of how to impart his experiences to those under his tutelege... Chevvy *seem* still to be far more 'localised'/geo, but again are mostly benefitting from the addition of experienced players who know how to explain what they've got stored in their brains... Druids - they're all over the shop, but then they always have been. They've got a lot of experience between them, and they've some youngstars (deliberate spelling!) to tell it to. They'd do a lot better if they could actually explain what they know in such a way that the youngsters could understand it - and the experienced players would maybe remember to use some of it, too! Ben Ravillious> I hope UTI is the last such team to form in this >country. Me too! [Stealing second place at Nationals, grumble, moan... :)] Seriously - I'll be most disappointed if teams such as Oxford (the home of the BUF, before Leicester) and Brighton - both once large, strong player bases, fail to be able to field at ONE team because there's nobody around to inspire and coach the newer players in tournaments as well as training. Andy Tucker>Perhaps it would be better if we go back a few years to when >any good Uni player was immediately snatched up by either Gun or >Druids, rather than going on to form a new team of their own. Isn't this what happened when UTI weren't sure they could manage a team of their own for Worlds? Most of them went, but with other teams! Now they've picked up a few more handy players and consider themselves in with a chance, they're looking to be their own team. Ben Ravillious> Er...I think not - isn't that practice dying out now? I think that it's not so much 'dying out' as going underground and establishing deeper roots - a lot of good student players are starting to be associated with other teams before they graduate [eg Locks (Brighton) - Shotgun, Alex (Brighton) - UTI, Dave Barnard (Cardiff) - Catch 22, Si Weeks (Sheffield) - Chevron] and the movement after graduation is hardly noticed. You may have noticed that with Patch as GB Juniors coach, Druids seem to be gaining the odd exJunior or two... though we expect to loose them to Uni teams when they're old enough (sigh!)... On the other hand, Red Shift exist and recruit Skunks who stay in Southampton, and exMythago players are graduating into Headrush if they around Bristol Andy Tucker> I say strengthen the "geo" team spec. initially. How 'strong' should the geo spec be? 'Proper' strength? eg Everyone must be resident AND train regularly within 15 miles? (Is this *really* overdoing it? surely roughly that, or a SMALLER distance, is what we're aiming for?) And, if we did it TODAY... Bye bye Druids, Bye Bye Catch, Bye Bye UTI Hello, Catch London, Catch Leeds, UTI London, UTI Oxford ? *I* doubt it. Hello UTI/Shotgun combo ? Far more likely How many of the experienced players would just disappear, rather than join a 'lesser' team and develop it? [Personally, I don't *think* I would want to play with Lurkers or K- Niggets, if they'd have me! Attend their practices 'to keep running and throwing' maybe; 'drop helpful hints' maybe; but to have the patience to bring them up to challenging for semis, coaching at training AND *playing with them at tournaments* in those early stages (after all, that's the crunch point, isn't it?) - I'm not sure I'd want to spend the rest of my playing time that way, even if it would be time well spent! BTW, there is no poor reflection meant on either of those teams - they're my 'local' teams and should be the ones who *ought* to benefit, to whatever extent from the 'geo' rules being applied to *me*] Hello Red, First Touch, Headrush - guaranteed! Ben Ravillious>Hmm. the good graduates invariably end up playing for >tart teams it seems. <theory (so shoot me down if you want!)> because the players themselves are generally individually better? (That's why tart teams are picking up the *good* graduates, right? They just, kind of, do their own thing in the available space!). The tart teams therefore have a whole pile of "get out of trouble free" flash passes and layout catches for when the stall gets high or SMALL mistakes are made, and height, speed, athleticism for the D. No brains required! Until it gets real windy and the tarts come across a team with a D you can't break - nobody really *knows* what each other can do (it just, kind of, happened...) and you have no real tactics to try (you've never needed them before...) until you hit the one that works. The 'geo' teams *know* each other - the different release heights of A's forehand rollcurve and forehand huck, how the number of steps in B's fake tells you which way the actual cut will be, how 7 pints of cider, half a kebab and no breakfast will have affected C's running speed - AND have a practiced set of tactics that require teamwork, X, Y and Z do *this* but it doesn't matter *who* X, Y and Z *are* (even if they are regularly the same people) - these are the moves and throws they need to make... Their players will be solid and fully aware of what's occurring</theory> Andy Tucker to Ben Ravillious >You seem very bitter, is this caused by no-one wanting to >play with Red I wonder? Personally, Red are doing very well without any 'star' pickups (but how many teams would like to 'borrow' Scott?). Were we to abolish the non- geo teams RIGHT NOW (a long term objective of the Tour... if you read carefully) they'd be in the top 4 with First Touch and Headrush! Ben Ravillious>Does anyone else have anything to say on this subject? Will this do, for the time being? Wayne Retter thoroughly aware of being hypocritical about geo-teams by virtue (!?!) of being a Fluid Druid, <hint> the team that is looking to recruit up- and-coming young stars for the '99 season and Worlds... </hint> <SOHF>DON'T ask about Richie...</SOHF> <insult>I said YOUNG</insult><smarm> Anyway, he's already a star!</smarm> ---------------------------------------------------------------- Wayne Retter at home: 01737-242109 wayne@phidelta.demon.co.uk at work: 01737-273611 wayne_retter@watsonwyatt.co.uk