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Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:35:14 +0100
To: britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk
From: Wayne Retter <postmaster@phidelta.demon.co.uk>
Reply-To: Wayne Retter <wayne@phidelta.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RULE QUESTION - bored yet?
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HUGHES, Chris <CHughes@chelt.ac.uk> writes
CH>The rules now state that you have to have control of the disc and
CH>yourself to claim a catch...

officially (1998 WFDF Rules) phrased as:

404.12 The Receiver: 
A. Possession: A receiver gains possession by demonstrating sustained
contact and control of a non-spinning disc while the receiver is on the
ground and in-bounds. Loss of control due to ground contact related to a
pass reception negates that receiveršs possession up to that point

CH>If you are not on the pitch and have never been you cannot have
CH>possession and therefore can place the disc on the floor (if on
CH>D) and have never completed the catch so you do not have to take
CH>possession.

So could this apply to aerial and layout D, too? I could make the
jump/layout, catch the disc and throw/drop it to the ground, before I
make ground contact without it being a "double" turnover?

The rules don't say much about the D, but they do say this about
interceptions:

404.12 The Receiver: 
E. Interception: A pass is considered intercepted if a defensive player
catches a pass. If a defensive player catches a pass and accidentally
loses possession of it before or during ground contact related to that
catch, the defender is considered to have blocked rather than
intercepted the pass. 

Therefore, as Chris says (but with the official words to back me up) I
agree that we're looking at ACCIDENTALLY as the key phrase (and realise
I can't get away with my jump/layout above)

I'd also now argue that the only difference between an Offensive catch
and a Defensive catch is that you are allowed to ACCIDENTALLY drop/put
down a Defensive catch without penalty, and that position on/off pitch
is irrelevant.

This means, by my reckoning, that Wigsy turned over due to his
deliberately putting down the disc, even though he was out of bounds,
for another player to pick up. He should have been the one to bring the
disc back to the pitch and put it in play.

I reckon that some of the more agressive teams might even have tried
stalling Wigsy whilst he was out of bounds (I've been stalled by a
marker whilst still in a post-layout slide!), and putting the disc down
would constitute a throwaway after the interception, even though he
never made it back onto the pitch.

(I reckon some opposition might let you put the disc down if you're
lying in a tangled heap and needed that hand free to be able to make it
back to your feet - but only if you were on D, landed off-pitch,
promised that you'd pick the disc up again, and asked first!)

As for Si's scenario of Wigsy converting his layout D into a Greatest
assist... you'd have to start looking at the rules involving having a
pivot foot...

404.10 The Thrower: 
A. A player may become "the thrower" by fielding a pull, receiving the
disc from a teammate, intercepting a pass from an opponent, or by
picking up the disc after a turnover. Whenever the disc is on the ground
following a turnover, whether in or out-of-bounds, any player becoming
offense may take possession of the disc and become the thrower. A
defensive player who establishes possession of the disc becomes the
thrower, but may not throw the disc before he or she establishes a legal
pivot foot. To do so is a travelling violation. 
B. Prior to releasing a throw, the thrower must establish a pivot foot
and may not change that pivot foot until the throw is released except in
the case of an offensive player who has just received a pass and is
throwing before the third ground contact in accordance with 404.12(C).
The thrower has the right to pivot off the pivot foot in any direction.
However, once the marker has established a legal position, the thrower
may not pivot into him. The thrower may throw the disc in any manner and
in any direction he or she chooses. 
C. In the event the disc is dropped by the thrower without defensive
interference, it is considered an incomplete pass.

and wonder whether even the Greatest is technically allowable...
- OK, it's a throw before the third ground contact...
- BUT, the Greatest thrower is technically a receiver, until the in/out
bounds status (and thus completeness of the pass) is determined by the
points of contact immediately before and after the catch...
- except that the receiver no longer has the disc when landing OB...

Then again, the Greatest is a thing of beauty and is deserving of
respect, and the Comment at the beginning of The Rules suggests that
such respect should merit allowance.

Sticking to the Rules, though, we seem to end up pretending that the
whole Greatest thing was merely a freak air current (!?) and that the
"original" pass is the one that completed - in which case the receiver
of Wigsy's hypothetical D-come-Greatest is the real intercepting player,
and gets to walk to disc to the endzone line rather than celebrate the
score immediately.

Another thing I've just noticed, an intercepting receiver cannot throw
on the run, but MUST establish a pivot foot before throwing.

Cue: Discussions on how long a foot must be on the ground to be a pivot
foot..

Wayne
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Wayne Retter
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