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Reply-To: "Adam Keen" <london_ultimate@hotmail.com>
From: "Adam Keen" <london_ultimate@hotmail.com>
To: <londonleague@onelist.com>, "Roger Thomson" <roger.thomson@oyster.co.uk>,
"'Ziants, Wayne'" <WZiants@spencerstuart.com>,
<britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk>
References: <C99A86B5A019D2118F8400805F957BF102B1F4EE@POLARIS>
Subject: Re: [londonleague] Londers - lets do something about this shit!
Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 12:00:45 -0000
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Dear all,
I am with David on this one. Speaking as the the daft bloke who =
organized the two (or was it three?) one day Regent's Park Friendly =
Fires tournament and as a member of the Strawberry Jam pickup team which =
won Paul Hurt's League last year and as an (ex) member of Nationals =
qualifiers First Touch, (and an ex-Uriel player who really enjoyed the =
"out of the way" hats we organized in Exeter!) I really don't see that =
there is that much working against a London League that can accomodate =
every level.
I agree that there are certainly enough players in London to make it =
worthwhile. I also agree that organizing it will be a bitch, but here =
are some simple ideas that could make it work.
1. Get ALL the players available in London who want to play or might be =
interested in playing to send email to a designated account with their =
contact details and playing level. The self assessed level ought to be =
in the header so it can be filtered to relevant email folders. This will =
ensure that there is a ready information resource so that things can be =
organized with minimal time.
2. Since doing something is always better than doing nothing, we should =
mark out ONE weekend in London where we can run a hat tournament. It =
need not be a hat if we can get players to put in full teams. In fact, =
is there anything that prevents a hybrid tournament: smoe hat teams and =
some preorganzied teams in the same tourney? I think it only costs 50 to =
book a pitch in Regent's Park so it need not be expensive to do.
3. Depending on what happens viz. 1 and 2 we will have a better idea =
about how to continue. We could suggest that the hat / non-hat teams =
stay together for a Paul Hurt style summer league (which really should =
start as early as possible to allow students to commit time for it =
before exams / travel plans get in the way). Or we could just plan =
another hat / non-hat tournament.
It seems that the only way to decide how to go forward is to gauge real =
world responses to the idea. Actions speak louder than words and all of =
that. Otherwise, we can just discuss things forever without getting =
anything out of it beyond some philosophical satisfaction! I will be =
happy to be part of a TEAM of people who will organize all of this but I =
simply don't have the time to organize another RP day on my own again. =
Anyone else want to jump in?
Adam Keen
Under Cover Lovers
ex - Uriel
ex - First Touch
Currently looking for a new Tour team ...
----- Original Message -----=20
From: David Trovell=20
To: 'londonleague@onelist.com' ; Roger Thomson ; 'Ziants, Wayne' ; =
britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk=20
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2000 9:51 AM
Subject: [londonleague] Londers - lets do something about this shit!
From: David Trovell <david.trovell@bmpomd.co.uk>=20
Londoners
Personally I think it is pathetic we can't get a decent league in a =
city of
this size.
I'm sure there are lots of practices scattered around London forming a
pretty big player base. However, the majority of London players seem =
more
interested in having closed shop games than forming something long =
term in
London.
Having lots of little practices not only deters new players from =
entering
the sport but also means the majority of teams never reach their full
potential. It is such a lazy, short term attitude and means we will =
never
get to the advanced position of 'towns' like Vancouver, Sydney, =
Washington
etc.
The starting point to change all this could be to organise all summer
leagues/ team practices on the same day in the same place. This way we =
can
get everyone together and figure out the best way to combine it all.=20
For the first year we may just get lots of seperate games with no =
'league'
but at least every player can find his own level and switch between =
games
easily. It would also create a focus to attract new or foreign players =
and
also media coverage which will eventually grow the sport.
Paul Hurt has done a great job in the past but several established =
teams
have stayed away to do their own thing (and not just the top teams). =
Lets
all make an effort to change that this year.
On my part, I will encourage all London UTI players to attend. This =
will not
replace our closed 'squad' practices but add to them.
Any suggestions of a big venue?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Hurt [SMTP:paul@ultimatum.demon.co.uk]
> Sent: 02 March 2000 02:15
> To: Roger Thomson; 'Ziants, Wayne'; 'Wayne Retter' ; =
BritDisc
> Cc: London League
> Subject: [londonleague] RE: London League 2000
>=20
> From: Paul Hurt <paul@ultimatum.demon.co.uk>
>=20
> >One of the problems is that a regular league involves alot of =
travel and
> >time.
>=20
> One evening every other week or so you get on a tube train, play =
Ultimate=20
> against some people you may or may not already know, and then you =
all go=20
> down the pub. Doesn't sound so tough :-)
>=20
> >The teams in London are of wildly varying ability and this means =
alot
> >of the league games would involve a mis-match - and for both the =
stronger
> >and weaker teams are perceived as a waste by many of the players.=20
>=20
> Yes, if a Dough or UTI team entered, it probably would be a bit=20
> pointless.=20
>=20
> OTOH, lots of people play Ultimate because they enjoy it. I enjoy =
meeting=20
> new teams and players, regardless of whether we flatten them or they =
> flatten us, or anything inbetween. The point for me isn't =
necessarily the=20
> result, it's how much fun I had.
>=20
>=20
> >The summer
> >leagues in Canada and the US are an entirely different proposition =
- a
> large
> >proportion of them are hat teams, and those that aren't tend to be =
better
> >matchups because of the kind of team that enters or because =
structurally
> >that is more likely in a larger pool of teams.
>=20
> >
> >Events like the Regent's Park one-day tournies appeal far more =
because
> >playing one or two weaker teams is part of the whole day and all =
teams
> get a
> >good workout, some close and some not-so-close games and a social
> gathering.
>=20
> The RP one-dayers are fine and worthwhile, but don't do much to =
promote=20
> the formation of new teams or expand the sport - and I know that's =
not=20
> the point of these events. But I get the impression that there's a =
vast=20
> number of Londoners who'd love to play Ultimate regularly and=20
> competitively, but can't (or don't want to) leave London every other =
> weekend to do so. Hence the league.
> >
> >
> >I can see Doughboy, for example, playing in that kind of event, but =
can't
> >necessarily see us committing to play in a League with regular =
fixtures
> and
> >travel if 75% of the games we would win 15-1. That might be =
different if
> the
> >format were different and offered more competitive games through =
peer
> pools
> >and promotion and demotion.
>=20
> We had a league containing only six teams last year, so obviously =
this=20
> isn't going to happen just yet! But you have to start somewhere. All =
> those huge North American leagues started this small. If Doughboy =
are=20
> still playing in ten years time, maybe then it'll be worth their =
while=20
> putting in a team! :-)
>=20
> To be honest, those individuals that want to play in the London =
League=20
> do, and those that don't, don't. If uniformly high-level games is =
what=20
> you're after, then you're not going to find them here. But for some=20
> Londoners, if it wasn't for the league, they'd never play *any*=20
> competitive games, just Thursday night pickup where no-one can =
remember=20
> the score, and no-one cares anyway.
>=20
> If any of the "elite" players want to form or join a team, then =
please go=20
> right ahead. It's just a bit of fun after all.
>=20
> Paul
>=20
> P.S. Wayne's right, unless anyone has any particular objections, =
it'll be=20
> co-ed this year. Rule will be that each 7-a-side team must have at =
least=20
> two players of each sex on the pitch. i.e. 5/2, 4/3, 3/4 or 2/5. =
Thanks=20
> for the suggestion Patch.
>=20
>=20
> ---------------------------------
> Paul Hurt
>=20
> paul@ultimatum.demon.co.uk
> http://www.ultimatum.demon.co.uk
>=20
>=20
> =
------------------------------------------------------------------------
> MAXIMIZE YOUR CARD, MINIMIZE YOUR RATE!
> Get a NextCard Visa, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as=20
> 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees.
> Apply NOW!
> http://click.egroups.com/1/2122/4/_/555660/_/951963163/
> =
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Latest info is on the London League Web Site:
> http://www.ultimatum.demon.co.uk/londonleague/
> -------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----
-------------------------------------------------------------
Latest info is on the London League Web Site:
http://www.ultimatum.demon.co.uk/londonleague/
-------------------------------------------------------------=20
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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Dear all,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I am with David on this one. Speaking =
as the the=20
daft bloke who organized the two (or was it three?) one day Regent's =
Park=20
Friendly Fires tournament and as a member of the Strawberry Jam pickup =
team=20
which won Paul Hurt's League last year and as an (ex) member of =
Nationals=20
qualifiers First Touch, (and an ex-Uriel player who really enjoyed the =
"out of=20
the way" hats we organized in Exeter!) I really don't see that there is =
that=20
much working against a London League that can accomodate every=20
level.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>I agree that there are certainly enough =
players in=20
London to make it worthwhile. I also agree that organizing it will be a =
bitch,=20
but here are some simple ideas that could make it work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>1. Get ALL the players available in =
London who want=20
to play or might be interested in playing to send email to a designated =
account=20
with their contact details and playing level. The self assessed level =
ought to=20
be in the header so it can be filtered to relevant email folders. This =
will=20
ensure that there is a ready information resource so that things can be=20
organized with minimal time.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>2. Since doing something is always =
better than=20
doing nothing, we should mark out ONE weekend in London where we can run =
a hat=20
tournament. It need not be a hat if we can get players to put in full =
teams. In=20
fact, is there anything that prevents a hybrid tournament: smoe hat =
teams and=20
some preorganzied teams in the same tourney? I think it only costs 50 to =
book a=20
pitch in Regent's Park so it need not be expensive to do.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>3. Depending on what happens viz. 1 and =
2 we will=20
have a better idea about how to continue. We could suggest that the hat =
/=20
non-hat teams stay together for a Paul Hurt style summer league (which =
really=20
should start as early as possible to allow students to commit time for =
it before=20
exams / travel plans get in the way). Or we could just plan another hat =
/=20
non-hat tournament.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>It seems that the only way to decide =
how to go=20
forward is to gauge real world responses to the idea. Actions speak =
louder than=20
words and all of that. Otherwise, we can just discuss things forever =
without=20
getting anything out of it beyond some philosophical satisfaction! I =
will be=20
happy to be part of a TEAM of people who will organize all of this but I =
simply=20
don't have the time to organize another RP day on my own again. Anyone =
else want=20
to jump in?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Adam Keen</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Under Cover Lovers</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>ex - Uriel</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>ex - First Touch</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Currently looking for a new Tour team=20
...</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: =
0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; FONT: 10pt arial; font-color: =
black"><B>From:</B>=20
<A href=3D"mailto:david.trovell@bmpomd.co.uk"=20
title=3Ddavid.trovell@bmpomd.co.uk>David Trovell</A> </DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:'londonleague@onelist.com'"=20
title=3Dlondonleague@onelist.com>'londonleague@onelist.com'</A> ; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:roger.thomson@oyster.co.uk"=20
title=3Droger.thomson@oyster.co.uk>Roger Thomson</A> ; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:WZiants@spencerstuart.com"=20
title=3DWZiants@spencerstuart.com>'Ziants, Wayne'</A> ; <A=20
href=3D"mailto:britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk"=20
title=3Dbritdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk>britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk</A> =
</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 02, 2000 =
9:51=20
AM</DIV>
<DIV style=3D"FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [londonleague] Londers =
- lets do=20
something about this shit!</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV><TT>From:</TT> <TT>David Trovell <<A=20
=
href=3D"mailto:david.trovell@bmpomd.co.uk">david.trovell@bmpomd.co.uk</A>=
></TT>=20
<BR><BR><TT>Londoners<BR><BR>Personally I think it is pathetic we =
can't get a=20
decent league in a city of<BR>this size.<BR><BR>I'm sure there are =
lots of=20
practices scattered around London forming a<BR>pretty big player base. =
However, the majority of London players seem more<BR>interested in =
having=20
closed shop games than forming something long term =
in<BR>London.<BR><BR>Having=20
lots of little practices not only deters new players from =
entering<BR>the=20
sport but also means the majority of teams never reach their=20
full<BR>potential. It is such a lazy, short term attitude and means we =
will=20
never<BR>get to the advanced position of 'towns' like Vancouver, =
Sydney,=20
Washington<BR>etc.<BR><BR>The starting point to change all this could =
be to=20
organise all summer<BR>leagues/ team practices on the same day in the =
same=20
place. This way we can<BR>get everyone together and figure out the =
best way to=20
combine it all. <BR><BR>For the first year we may just get lots of =
seperate=20
games with no 'league'<BR>but at least every player can find his own =
level and=20
switch between games<BR>easily. It would also create a focus to =
attract new or=20
foreign players and<BR>also media coverage which will eventually grow =
the=20
sport.<BR><BR>Paul Hurt has done a great job in the past but several=20
established teams<BR>have stayed away to do their own thing (and not =
just the=20
top teams). Lets<BR>all make an effort to change that this =
year.<BR><BR>On my=20
part, I will encourage all London UTI players to attend. This will=20
not<BR>replace our closed 'squad' practices but add to =
them.<BR><BR>Any=20
suggestions of a big venue?<BR><BR>> -----Original =
Message-----<BR>>=20
From: Paul Hurt=20
[SMTP:paul@ultimatum.demon.co.uk]<BR>> =
Sent: =20
02 March 2000 02:15<BR>> To: Roger =
Thomson;=20
'Ziants, Wayne'; 'Wayne Retter' ;=20
BritDisc<BR>> Cc: London =
League<BR>>=20
Subject: [londonleague] RE: London =
League=20
2000<BR>> <BR>> From: Paul Hurt=20
<paul@ultimatum.demon.co.uk><BR>> <BR>> >One of the =
problems is=20
that a regular league involves alot of travel and<BR>> =
>time.<BR>>=20
<BR>> One evening every other week or so you get on a tube train, =
play=20
Ultimate <BR>> against some people you may or may not already know, =
and=20
then you all go <BR>> down the pub. Doesn't sound so tough =
:-)<BR>>=20
<BR>> >The teams in London are of wildly varying ability and =
this means=20
alot<BR>> >of the league games would involve a mis-match - and =
for both=20
the stronger<BR>> >and weaker teams are perceived as a waste by =
many of=20
the players. <BR>> <BR>> Yes, if a Dough or UTI team entered, it =
probably would be a bit <BR>> pointless. <BR>> <BR>> OTOH, =
lots of=20
people play Ultimate because they enjoy it. I enjoy meeting <BR>> =
new teams=20
and players, regardless of whether we flatten them or they <BR>> =
flatten=20
us, or anything inbetween. The point for me isn't necessarily the =
<BR>>=20
result, it's how much fun I had.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> >The=20
summer<BR>> >leagues in Canada and the US are an entirely =
different=20
proposition - a<BR>> large<BR>> >proportion of them are hat =
teams,=20
and those that aren't tend to be better<BR>> >matchups because =
of the=20
kind of team that enters or because structurally<BR>> >that is =
more=20
likely in a larger pool of teams.<BR>> <BR>> ><BR>> =
>Events=20
like the Regent's Park one-day tournies appeal far more =
because<BR>>=20
>playing one or two weaker teams is part of the whole day and all=20
teams<BR>> get a<BR>> >good workout, some close and some =
not-so-close=20
games and a social<BR>> gathering.<BR>> <BR>> The RP =
one-dayers are=20
fine and worthwhile, but don't do much to promote <BR>> the =
formation of=20
new teams or expand the sport - and I know that's not <BR>> the =
point of=20
these events. But I get the impression that there's a vast <BR>> =
number of=20
Londoners who'd love to play Ultimate regularly and <BR>> =
competitively,=20
but can't (or don't want to) leave London every other <BR>> weekend =
to do=20
so. Hence the league.<BR>> ><BR>> ><BR>> >I can see=20
Doughboy, for example, playing in that kind of event, but =
can't<BR>>=20
>necessarily see us committing to play in a League with regular=20
fixtures<BR>> and<BR>> >travel if 75% of the games we would =
win 15-1.=20
That might be different if<BR>> the<BR>> >format were =
different and=20
offered more competitive games through peer<BR>> pools<BR>> =
>and=20
promotion and demotion.<BR>> <BR>> We had a league containing =
only six=20
teams last year, so obviously this <BR>> isn't going to happen just =
yet!=20
But you have to start somewhere. All <BR>> those huge North =
American=20
leagues started this small. If Doughboy are <BR>> still playing in =
ten=20
years time, maybe then it'll be worth their while <BR>> putting in =
a team!=20
:-)<BR>> <BR>> To be honest, those individuals that want to play =
in the=20
London League <BR>> do, and those that don't, don't. If uniformly=20
high-level games is what <BR>> you're after, then you're not going =
to find=20
them here. But for some <BR>> Londoners, if it wasn't for the =
league,=20
they'd never play *any* <BR>> competitive games, just Thursday =
night pickup=20
where no-one can remember <BR>> the score, and no-one cares =
anyway.<BR>>=20
<BR>> If any of the "elite" players want to form or join a team, =
then=20
please go <BR>> right ahead. It's just a bit of fun after =
all.<BR>>=20
<BR>> Paul<BR>> <BR>> P.S. Wayne's right, unless anyone has =
any=20
particular objections, it'll be <BR>> co-ed this year. Rule will be =
that=20
each 7-a-side team must have at least <BR>> two players of each sex =
on the=20
pitch. i.e. 5/2, 4/3, 3/4 or 2/5. Thanks <BR>> for the suggestion=20
Patch.<BR>> <BR>> <BR>> =
---------------------------------<BR>>=20
Paul Hurt<BR>> <BR>> paul@ultimatum.demon.co.uk<BR>> <A=20
=
href=3D"http://www.ultimatum.demon.co.uk">http://www.ultimatum.demon.co.u=
k</A><BR>>=20
<BR>> <BR>>=20
=
------------------------------------------------------------------------<=
BR>>=20
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<BR>> =
-------------------------------------------------------------<BR>>=20
Latest info is on the London League Web Site:<BR>> <A=20
=
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