From britdisc-owner@csv.warwick.ac.uk Thu Mar 2 14:14:53 2000 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) id OAA24851 for britdisc-outgoing; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:13:14 GMT Received: from snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (snowdrop [137.205.192.31]) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3+Sun/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA24712 for <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk>; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:12:56 GMT Received: from mailgw.chelt.ac.uk (mailgw.chelt.ac.uk [194.81.184.203]) by snowdrop.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29224 for <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk>; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:12:54 GMT Received: from exchpk02.chelt.ac.uk (unverified) by mailgw.chelt.ac.uk (Content Technologies SMTPRS 2.0.15) with ESMTP id <B0002165357@mailgw.chelt.ac.uk>; Thu, 02 Mar 2000 14:07:00 +0000 Received: by exchpk02.chelt.ac.uk with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) id <D2M60D7R>; Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:11:06 -0000 Message-Id: <8102C4585310D211858D0060B01A41330170E549@exchpk02.chelt.ac.uk> From: "HUGHES, Chris" <CHughes@chelt.ac.uk> To: britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk, "'ANDY COTGREAVE'" <acotgreave@rm.com> Subject: RE: Tour Format Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2000 14:10:55 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2448.0) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Sender: owner-britdisc@warwick.ac.uk Precedence: bulk I appreciate that Andy is not having a gripe at the organisers, and I also appreciate that he feels a bit upset at the situation wrt the tour. However, Whilst I did my utmost to find venues for the tour, I was struggling, which is indicative of 2 things; 1. The number of people who are prepared to organise tournaments is falling drastically. This year I had 2 offers to run tours, other than myself and Wayne, along with 2 offers of 'we might be able to do something'. The tour is elitist - yes, but do the elite teams contribute to organise an event - No. When was the last time UTI, Chevron, Catch, Doughboy (who have enough Brits) and 1st Touch organise any event. Druids and BAF, organised tournaments -albeit non-tour events, and out of the top 8 teams, for whom the tour is supposed to be designed, RED are the only team to have organised a tour / National event. Granted there are individuals who play on these teams who organise events, but these are not team efforts. What about the teams outside the top 8 - where are they? So why aren't people prepared to host events - here come the arguments; Too much effort - crap, 2 people can run a good event - a team of 15 shouldn't find it too much work. Besides, I have schedules, contact the sports physio people, can provide all the equipment. Can't find a venue - the majority of top teams are scattered over a large area nowadays, are you telling me that someone doesn't live near, drive past, be a member of a venue that could host an event. Can't be bothered - Valid point, consider this - if next year I get a similar response to organising event, then you will get the same response from me about organising the tour, then you will have to organise it all yourselves. Perhaps the BUF should me more focused on promoting the sport in those areas where people are willing to put the effort in to assist, and that is not the impression coming from the top teams. Why organise a tour (or any event for that matter)? Travel - organise an event on your doorstep, and you can be packed up and home by 6 rather than have another 300 miles to travel. Money - As DoC, I don't care how much money you make, as long as teams are given good value for their entry fee. Over the last two years I have made a net profit playing at tournaments (and that includes Worlds). Very, very, very few tournaments make a loss - those that do are usually down somebody forgetting to allow for costing of pitches or similar. Teams are crying out for events to play at. Offer them. Plan now. This then brings me to point 2; Tour Format / Organisation; all suggested alterations to the tour seem to make two assumptions; that either we are able to maintain the large size of the teams at tour events, or that we can reduce the size of the events, by splitting different leagues, or divisions - which will require more TD's - something we haven't got. It is quite apparent to me that the tour is unlikely to survive beyond this year. This is the outcome unless three things happen. Players and teams actually contribute towards providing opportunity for all to play the sport they love, and that players start becoming aware that they can't simply expect to be able to play for themselves. Lots of experienced players put a lot of effort to provide the opportunities to let you learn and develop your game - you are now the experienced players (not necessarily good, but experienced), it is time to return the favour and the effort - that means more than just griping on Britdisc about how it should be. People should realise that for the top tier events, it can no longer be a big, social gathering for all. This means teams have to accept that at some event they won't see top players, or their friends etc., as teams are there to play seriously, but also that any plans that involves teiring the system should be fair and equitable to all. That myself as DoC along with the u8c and BUF, can assist you in organisation of events, we can establish format and rules, we can monitor systems, but we cannot host events. We may endorse them, and make it a flagship tournament, but the BUF as an organisation has not held a tournament for a long time. Chris DoC (Anyone want to buy a soapbox - I'm done) > ---------- > From: ANDY COTGREAVE[SMTP:acotgreave@rm.com] > Sent: 02 March 2000 08:26 > To: britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk > Subject: RE: Tour Format > > > >A much bigger problem, however, is if a team misses the first tour. > > > > As I have previously mentioned, the Tour is elitest. > > If you want to be a part of that "elite", you don't miss any events! > > > > unless tour dates are changed at the last minute, moved to a bank holiday, > thus affecting all teams - maybe affecting the top teams the most? how so? > the top teams are the ones who commit the most to ultimate, what with team > practises, GB practises, and overseas tournaments. the top teams are the > ones who plan their "real" lives around the frisbee commitments. and when > dates are changed, that affects the top teams. > > i know that UTI and Chevron are affected badly by these date changes. > > this isn't a criticism of those who have made the effort to book the > events, > i am fully aware of the problems that there have been this year. i guess > we > just need to think about the way we book events, as well as they way we > restructure the tour. > > Andy > Chevron > > > STANDARD DISCLAIMER: This message is confidential. 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