From britdisc-owner@csv.warwick.ac.uk Fri Feb 23 14:01:01 2001 Received: (from daemon@localhost) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.9.3) id f1NDwRZ21469 for britdisc-outgoing; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:58:27 GMT Received: from daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (root@daffodil [137.205.192.30]) by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.9.3) with ESMTP id f1NDwPh21463 for <britdisc-real@pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk>; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:58:25 GMT Received: from mail.dmt.co.uk (mail.dmt.co.uk [193.130.13.212]) by daffodil.csv.warwick.ac.uk (8.10.1/8.9.3) with SMTP id f1NDwHF22122 for <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk>; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:58:19 GMT Received: From DMTNT.DMT.CO.UK (192.168.10.2[192.168.10.2 port:3619]) by mail.dmt.co.uk Mail essentials (server 2.422) with SMTP id: <3374@mail.dmt.co.uk> for <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk>; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 1:56:08 PM +0000 smtpmailfrom <paul.meaney@qa.com> Received: by dmtnt.dmtdomain with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id <DWGZ1QP9>; Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:13:02 -0000 Message-ID: <A5AACA33C168D2118B6800A024CB49D72CA35F@dmtnt.dmtdomain> From: Paul Meaney <paul.meaney@qa.com> To: "'BRITDISC' (E-mail)" <britdisc@csv.warwick.ac.uk> Subject: RE: Students & the Tour (was Tour Dates etc.) Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:13:01 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by pansy.csv.warwick.ac.uk id f1NDwPh21464 Sender: owner-britdisc@warwick.ac.uk Precedence: bulk Ben, chris had the right idea. Make the tour smaller. I believe I've mentioned this about four or five times. Ultimate is not a high enough profile sport in the UK to demand access to decent facilities of the size required by the tour. That way you only have to worry about one large event - Nationals. personally email you a > copy of the minutes of the AGM. > Ben, I'm not desperately bothered about the minutes, as that's closing tha gate after the horse has bolted.. but I am bothered about why this budget increase was not on the Agenda. That's all I have been asking. And also, why has it taken until now (the AGM was in september) to find out that the Tour fees are going up dramatically? This, surely, is a question of accountability? > The larger the tour gets and the more demanding the players > become for decent > facilities, the less TD's come forward. Its that simple. The so the simple answer is make the tour smaller. Or have we already mentioned this. ning > events. And you're making it worse by demonstrating exactly > what response they > can expect when it doesn't go perfectly. Ben - it's all about information. Britdisc has been around for years. I don't think it would be too much to ask of a TD to send an email out saying "guys, we've been let down by the groundstaff and there are no hot showers. We are really sorry and will look into offering you a refund. Just be aware opf this when you turn up". Is that so difficult. But no - the attitude is "good show! great effort! the facilities were shit, but well worth the £100 per team" people are quite happy to take the congratualtions for doing the event. dare to criticise something and you get stamped on. > > That said, you would indeed by right to expect better events > given the higher > fees. We're all looking forward to the improvements the extra > budget should > enable. > agreed. > Paul, I really don't mean this to be having a personal go at > you, but until you > show some signs of positive input you will be treated as > nothing but a sideline > heckler. and this bothers me because.... So is that an official line of the BUF? to utterly ignore criticism? I am sick and tired of the closing of ranks when a tournament goes drastically wrong. Instead of a hands-up 'yep, sorry, we goofed we'll do better next time' , the attitude of recent years has been a closed shop "tough, you should be grateful" or "if you can do better do it yourself" attitude. that's a crock of b.s. Anyways Ben what am I criticising? I am having a go at a tour entry fee of 150 quid MINIMUM. I am also criticising the BUF for (a) not mentioning this little nugget in the AGM agenda (b) not telling us until now and (c) not making the AGM minutes publicly available. for the sixth time Chris Huges has the right Idea (god I never thought I'd say that in public!) I have read his proposal, I think it's well thought out and he's covered all bases, from a top teams POV as well as a lower teams POV. He's right about the skills gap between top and bottom 12 and the issue of number of promotable teams remains tricky. He's come up with a number of ideas and scenarios to get around this issue. I have no idea which one will work best in practice. An option is to have no promotion/ relegation on a per tour basis, but on a per season. Nationals include all of division 1 and eg top four of division2. I disagree with his nationals strategy, but hells teeth, I don't think it's been done before, give it a go and see what people think! If it's crap and doesn't work - don't to it again. At least give the man the benefit of the doubt and give it a try. At the end of the day, you have to give things a try, see what works, see what doesn't, take the criticisms on the chin, and take them POSITIVELY, LEARN from them and DO IT BETTER NEXT TIME! The attitude of late has to be constantly defend, rather than learn from mistakes and strive to improve. I think that the defensiveness of your repsonse, Ben , has merely emphasized this point. The actual issues are being missed under a load of rhetoric. This is not squabbling, this is highlighting flaws in the existing structure , and a little humility on the part of either the BUF, the U8C or a TD to admit when things are not working wouldn't go amiss. That's what I'm getting at. > One final point, there is no requirement for every subject to > be discussed and > voted on at AGM. Its generally better to allow the officers > to make executive > decisions. You can then vote them out if you don't like it - what, decisions like upping Tour fees by 50%? what's the next one? BUF Taxes up by 200% Paul